Should F1 ditch blue flags? Will the calendar expand to 25 races? And how will FIA/FOM relations change under Liberty ownership? Maurice Hamilton asks Ross Brawn these questions and more in the second of ESPN's two-part exclusive interview with F1's new managing director of motorsport.
Overtaking - it's always been a bone of contention. It's early days yet and we don't know what will happen in 2017, but the likelihood is that it won't be any easier to overtake this year. Would you be in favour of a pretty fundamental change that, say, gets rid of the large nose wings or reduces them?
I don't honestly know what the solutions could be. One the things I want to do within FOM is to create the capacity to study those things. FOM's never had that capacity and has always had to take the opinions given to it by other parties. The FIA do a little bit of that, but what I would like to do is create a small group people within FOM that have the experience and the knowledge to look at those problems and those challenges so that we have our own opinion on what could be the solution. We would work with the teams, of course, and work the FIA, but we would also have some knowledge ourselves. I don't know how deep that will go because there are limitations on how much you can do,
I'm not a great fan of DRS if I'm honest. It artificially solved a problem that we didn't want to tackle head on. It doesn't have the quality or merit of a full-on overtaking manoeuvre. The fact that you can press a button and get past almost means we never see those full-on [overtaking manoeuvres]. We don't know when something has been a really quality overtake because they are all button-induced now. There are other bits of the circuit where sometimes that happens and you actually think 'blimey, that was great' because you know it wasn't DRS and someone has dived up the inside of a corner or something. That is definitely a topic that I would like to engage everyone in and find a solution. But that's pretty fundamental because it may involve the ratio between aerodynamics and mechanical grip.
I've sat on both sides and aerodynamics are a very appealing element to car design. If you keep your wind tunnel programme going, the numbers keep ratcheting up and you know you are going to go faster if you get the numbers a bit higher. It's addictive. So, people are not going to want to give that up easily, but it may be an aspect that we are going to have to look at -- the ratio of aerodynamics and mechanical grip. Everybody has been saying the same thing for some time, but we have never bit the bullet.
I think 2017 is going to be very interesting, because from what I perceive we have moved in that direction again -- to higher levels of aerodynamics -- and I think we will get a perfect example of whether that is going to improve or worsen the situation. So we've got a field test going on next year in the racing season to see. It may well shake the order up a bit, and that's one thing that's important, but if we end up with cars that are going to become even more difficult to race with each other then I think we have got to take that as a clear indication that there is a rethink needed in the long-term. I don't want any of these things to happen knee-jerk for the next year because it will disadvantage somebody and we don't want to do that, we want to have changes planned over a long enough time that nobody feels they are disadvantaged -- they can join in the process and support it.
Do you feel that Formula One, in some ways, is over-regulated from the point of view of racing? I'm thinking of the blue flags for example...
Yeah, you and I have been in racing when there were no blue flags. Ken Tyrrell was famous because his drivers were told never to let anyone overtake even if they were lapping you! My instinct is that it would be fun to get rid of the blue flags because they created some challenge in the race. A modern racing driver, if he is at the front of the field, you hear him on the radio all the time 'Tell him to give him the blue flags! Tell him to give him the blue flags!' They want free passage and mentally they are attuned to getting free passage. But surely the racing drivers years ago knew they wouldn't get free passage and they'd have to get past whoever was in front of them.
And that does create some uncertainty in the race, and may argue it's not as pure because the guys at the front should be allowed free rein, but I think we are at risk of over-regulating in the racing. The whole debate is going on about penalties for drivers and so on and I see that the FIA has just made a change now that, unless it is a very serious issue, they are not going to apply any in-race penalties, which I think is moving in the right direction. Clearly if someone does something that is very aggressive and totally out of order, then you've got to react, but let a little bit of argy-bargy go on -- that's racing. For instance, Verstappen was a great breath of fresh air in Formula One. He was very aggressive and upset a few people, but that's racing and that's what we want. I don't think he ever did anything outrageous, so we need to just step back a bit on all of that.
The danger is you let it go too far and then you've got a bit of a situation to control, but I think you can. The other thing that, I don't know the solution yet, is the technical penalties and the grid slots, so if you do something with the engine you go back five places. We had the crazy situation of cars with 70 grid spots and it's not good for the sport. I know why we've got there, I know why we arrived there and I know the reasons why we have got that system, but it has to be a priority to find a different solution. The fans think it's farcical that Fernando [Alonso] is at the back of the grid but he's got a 70-place penalty or something -- it doesn't look right.
Protecting the classics
Talking about racing as it was, are you keen to see what we might call the 'classic races' survive? Is it important to you and would it be upsetting to Liberty Media if classics like the French and German Grands Prix are no longer there?
I've discussed this with Liberty Media and they are completely in line and supportive of the fact we have a strong heritage in Formula One. That's what they respect and that's what they want to build on. My view and their view is there is a core of races which are the heritage of Formula One and we must preserve them. Of course other races become the heritage of Formula One, other races over years have started to become well liked and important races in the calendar; Bahrain, Singapore, those sorts of races are now joining that group.
But of course it's the existence of that group that makes it so appealing to the other races, they want to be part of it. And if you lose that then you don't stay attractive to the other races. We've got to find solutions to make all the promoters have an easier time of running a race. That doesn't involve just reducing the fees because that is simply not the direction that we need to go in. We want to find ways of making a race better value for a promoter so he can make more money up the front and can afford his fees at the back end, not just keep reducing the fees at the backend. I'm not an expert, but that's where I'm optimistic that the expertise of Liberty Media and the people they are bringing in -- Chase [Carey], Sean Bratches and other people - will be able to look at that and put effort and work into doing that.
Austin, for instance, had Taylor Swift on the Saturday night and it was a great success. Then you get fans who may not be big race fans but they are Taylor Swift fans and they see the race as well and you start to get this cross over. Liberty Media have a large shareholding in Live Nation, which is a very important concert promoter, so those cross links come in there and they want to be able to help promoters. They've looked already at the successful races like Singapore and have seen what they are doing already to make the whole thing an entertainment package and try to create a template for other circuits to use and give them support and give them help to make their whole weekend, or even their week, a much more successful package.
Also [we need] a change the mindset of the teams and the drivers that they have got to support those things. Over the years we have mollycoddled the drivers a bit and getting them to do support programmes for Formula One has never been easy. Maybe we need a generation change and it will be that next generation of drivers coming through who will know that's part of their responsibility.
What you are saying here is music to the ears of a lot people, because the attitude of those inside Formula One has been quite hostile. The answer is so often 'no, but what's your question'. This is a complete change, which I guess you feel is completely necessary?
That's why I've got involved. I'm talking the talk but we've got to walk the walk now and we've got to deliver. That's my philosophy and I know it's the philosophy of Chase and the other Liberty Media executives -- that's the message that I'm getting from them and that's what convinced me to get involved. Bernie has done a wonderful job and nobody can do the way he has done it, so that's the end of an era and we start again. Hopefully we can bring a different approach that works in different ways. That's why it's exciting and that's what got me out of retirement.
One of the things that Liberty has mentioned is to increase the number of races, perhaps to 25. Now, you've been at the other end where you have been working with the mechanics and the team and you know the stresses, what are your thoughts on that?
They asked me what I thought was the maximum number of races, and first of all I said we've got to balance quality and quantity. We've got to make sure we don't just have races because we can increase the number, the races have to be of good quality, in good places and in exciting places. We also need to think about the frequency of races because the nice balance of a race every other weekend is perfect. But teams can organise themselves to do more than the current number. There is a knee point where you need to join in with the teams to help them and support the extra number of races, because 20 or 21 is pretty tough on the crews and tough on the engineers, tough on everyone who travels. But if you then set yourself up with two sets of crews and two sets of engineers and all the rest of it, which I believe is what NASCAR does, then you can do it. But you have to engage with everyone to make that step.
There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't have more races, but you can't have more races with the same structure that teams have now, because it would just break it. If we can have more races and find a way with the teams of giving them the capacity to do it properly then it's certainly not a strain on the drivers, because they don't do any testing anymore and there are other people within the organisation for whom it is not a strain, but it would be a strain on the crews and engineers and so on. But it's addressable and it can be done. Fundamentally we need to decide if we want that number of races and if it makes sense for the sport and makes sense for the show.
Working with Jean Todt
A lot of the things you are saying will require negotiations and cooperation with the FIA and its president Jean Todt. You of course know each other from your Ferrari days, I'm sure you are quite happy that you are working together again, but also do you think this approach from Liberty is less confrontational, because Jean Todt doesn't particularly like confrontation, so do you feel that will help marry the two sides together?
We certainly don't want confrontation, we want to work together with the FIA. They've got their objectives and priorities, they are the regulator of the sport and what it run safely and fairly and they want to have an input into the direction the sport goes. But if they are aligned with our way of thinking and ours with theirs then the sport will move forward, it's obviously when there is disagreement that it stalls and nothing happens.
Jean and I know each other very well, we've worked together for 10 years, we know the way we think and the way we work, so I'm optimistic we can find solutions with the FIA, with the teams and with the other stakeholders. It won't be smooth sailing, there will be massive challenges and there will be times that it will get very frustrating because people will say, 'no, I don't want to do that' and they will have their reasons. But if there's some logic to whatever happens then I can get through it, it's when it gets illogical that it gets very frustrating.
I'm fundamentally from an engineering background, so I use logic all the time, or I think I do. So there are times when I'm sure it will get frustrating but as long as we've got a good hit rate in the improvements we make and we identify them and introduce them sensibly and logically, then hopefully we can get people going along this route.
As long as the teams aren't individually disadvantaged and as long as it's not something which really hurts them in any way, then why would they not want to go along with something that is going to try and make the show better and bigger and increase the interest in Formula One. I hope that's the case anyway.
One last question, during your period out of F1 did you miss it? Is it just a case of having motorsport in the blood and you needed to be back?
I found lots of things to do, but you slow down a bit. It's funny, I've already found it, getting back involved again, that I've speeded up and I'm fitting more things into a day. When you haven't got that intensity then you kind of slow down a bit and do a few less things in the day than perhaps you used to. So the intensity is coming back already.
I have been very team orientated in the past with very clear and simple objectives of winning races and championships and everything was aligned round that. So my wins and my championships are now different and I've got to discover how that works for me. I'm optimistic that I'll find my motivation in trying to achieve that.
There were a lot of elements I missed from Formula One, a lot of aspects of Formula One I missed. There were some elements I didn't miss and I'm probably being a hypocrite now because I'm plunging myself back in the middle of the bits I didn't always enjoy! But if I could leave Formula One in the future with the feeling that I've been able to contribute and move it forward a bit then I would be very happy.
Read the first part of the interview here